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Louis Freedberg: 0:04
Welcome to Education on the Line, a podcast series focused on the latest threats to public education and strategies for confronting them. I'm Louis Freedberg. Over the past year, most of the focus, at least on the political front, has been on a series of attacks on education by the Trump administration, especially on President Trump's attempts to dismantle or eradicate entirely the U.S. Department of Education.
Louis Freedberg: 0:32
Today, we will be looking at what is happening at a local level on a range of issues from book bannings and all-gender bathrooms to efforts by conservative and right-wing groups to win majorities on school boards.
Louis Freedberg: 0:45
In particular, we'll look at whether pressures experienced before January 20th, 2025, on these fronts have continued, or whether there has been a shift to focusing more on national conflicts. More importantly, we will look at how local school leaders and decision makers can traverse this difficult landscape. To that end, I'm pleased to welcome two guests. First, Carl Cohn. Carl Cohn, as many of you know, is an esteemed educator and veteran school superintendent. He was superintendent of San Diego Unified and Long Beach Unified, the second and third largest school districts in California. He was a professor at California Graduate University and a clinical professor at the USC Rossier School of Education. In that role, he mentored superintendents in dozens of school districts, not only in California, but nationally. Most recently, with Jennifer Cheatham, he set up the Collaborative on Political Leadership in the Superintendency, which works with superintendents and other school leaders to navigate these tumultuous political times. Welcome, Carl.
Carl Cohn: 1:57
Thanks, Louis. Delighted to be here.
Louis Freedberg: 2:00
Also with us is Wesley Smith. He is also a veteran superintendent who, since 2021, has been superintendent of the Newport Mesa Unified School District in Southern California. Before that, he was Executive Director of the Association of California School Administrators, known to many of us as ACSA, which represents thousands of school superintendents and other school leaders throughout California. It's the largest such organization in the United States. And perhaps most importantly, he was a high school English teacher and I gather also a Spanish teacher and a football and baseball coach. And in addition to all of that, he is currently an adjunct professor in the doctoral program at the University of Southern California. Welcome, Wes.
Wesley Smith: 2:51
Thank you. Honored to be here.
Louis Freedberg: 2:53
Let me jump in with you, Carl. So much of the focus in the last few months has been on the Trump administration. Do you see the pressures, political pressures that you have been tracking so closely at a local level? Do you see those easing off or where do we stand right now?
Carl Cohn: 3:12
What we're going to see, because it's a midterm election year, and you have a boatload of local district school board elections. I see no waning of the attempt by the cultural warriors on the right to back off. I think we're going to see during this election year more and more emphasis on these kinds of issues. We had a district just before Christmas, right there in Orange County, where a school board member was arrested for child pornography, inappropriately contacting underage students. You can imagine the atmosphere around the next school board meeting of that district in Orange County because it fits this sort of national narrative around public school folks perverting youngsters. And so when something dramatic like that happens, it increases to the exponential power everybody's attention on this, and everybody's going, see, I told you so. That kind of rhetoric. So I don't see this type of issue easing in 2026.
Louis Freedberg: 4:41
Let me just press you on that a little bit because after the November 2024 elections, when there were many school board elections around the country, there were numbers of reports indicating that, for example, Moms for Liberty, which is, I think, one of the best known groups active in many school districts around the country, that they weren't that successful in many races. And it appeared like maybe they had lost momentum.
Carl Cohn: 5:07
I think nationally you're seeing some of that. As I look at the California landscape and the fact that we have a Moms for Liberty school board president now running for state superintendent in a crowded field with a bunch of progressive candidates, I believe it's possible that if all those progressive candidates stay in, this Moms for Liberty candidate could make the top two. I don't think she has a chance of winning ultimately, but if she makes the top two, her issues, these culture war issues, I believe will be front and center in California.
Louis Freedberg: 5:54
Let me bring in Wes Smith. Your district is in Orange County, where some of the most publicized conflicts around the culture wars, as Carl so delicately puts it, took place. What are you seeing?
Wesley Smith: 6:13
It's interesting because we talk about culture wars and we tend to focus on one side versus the other. And I think in a state like California, you have evidence that suggests both sides can be extreme. And that impact can have negative recourses at the school level, the district level. And so we we try here not to vilify sides and not to engage in these battles, but instead to do the work. How do we find unifying messages? How do we find work that matters for all of our family members? And that's been a part of our secret sauce. I say they can't knock me out if I don't get in the ring. So we stay out of that and we stay focused on the work. And I would say that here, we haven't seen a lot of it recently. Um, I think you mentioned the recent administration or current administration, rather, and the impact it's having. And we haven't seen really any impact with the Department of Education. I think most folks aren't even sure what the Department of Education does outside of some funding. The focus now, because there is a lever at the federal level, for the federal issues to be the focus. I think the one thing that's impacted our community is immigration. It hasn't had an impact on our district in the sense that we've had any activity on our campuses. But as community allies, we are certainly the community raising awareness, making sure that folks can get to school and get home. And while they're at school, that they're safe, that we protect this educational environment, that that's our guarantee. But that is a disruptive issue in a community like ours for sure.
Louis Freedberg: 7:53
Let me ask you, Carl. Right now, as we record this, Minneapolis is going through an extraordinarily difficult time, and the schools as well, with uh ICE agents did show up there. So I think everybody's trying to figure out how do we get through this. I note, though, you started something called the Collaborative on Political Leadership in the Superintendency. Why did you think that was needed and presumably is still needed?
Carl Cohn: 8:20
We felt strongly, in the work of myself and Jennifer Cheatham at Harvard with support from the Hewlett Foundation, that the post-No Child Left Behind consensus was on superintendent as an instructional leader. And we are now arguing that that is not what preparation, training for the superintendency should be about. We're arguing that it should be about your role as a civic leader. Some people are uneasy with the term politics, so we've sort of landed on civic leadership, and we have concrete examples of outstanding instructional leaders who have been removed from their position because that Christian nationalist pastor down the road decides, I am taking over that school district. And the only thing that will save the youngsters in our community is restoration of religion and religious leadership in the public schools of America. Because the public schools, as one pastor famously articulated, the public schools are the devil's playground. And so that is what we are trying to do. What should this new preparation training and support of superintendents look like in engaging in civic leadership becomes incredibly important because often we believe that everybody knows we're doing the right thing and we're doing a good job. Often that isn't the case. You really have to take a message to the community, and you have to show how you're going to engage the community so that they feel they have open access to see that this isn't the devil's playground. And so we've been working on that for about three years now, and it includes superintendents, politics of education scholars, some folks from the associational interest groups, but the assignment really is to better prepare superintendents for this kind of climate that we're in.
Louis Freedberg: 11:04
Carl, I do have to ask you, you mentioned Christian nationalism. I was in the audience a few weeks ago and you gave a talk at a conference, and somebody got up and sort of implied that you were against religion or against Christianity. Just tell us a little bit about your background in that regard.
Carl Cohn: 11:21
Before I got into public education, I studied to be a Roman Catholic priest for nine plus years. You know, I grew up in parochial schools. And I believe that in terms of the public school, you do not get to actively suggest that there should be some particular brand of Christianity that's promulgated in the public schools. And clearly, we have districts in what we call the Inland Empire, Riverside, San Bernardino counties, where large evangelical churches have suggested the opposite. That if you can get the most votes for a majority of candidates, then you are fully entitled to bring your brand of religion into the public schools.
Louis Freedberg: 12:24
Let me ask you about what Carl was saying, uh superintendent less as instructional leader and more having to deal with some of the civic and other political dimensions. Is that how you feel? Of course.
Wesley Smith: 12:39
Public education is inherently political, right? What we have to do is help superintendents better navigate that. So to Carl's point, to be civic leaders, to be instructional leaders, we have to be able to navigate those political waters. What we have to resist, I believe, are partisan politics, right? Because when we get caught up in that, then we create this dichotomy of winners and losers, right and wrong. And I think that takes us off our course. I have seven trustees, very diverse backgrounds, even on issues of LGBTQ plus youth. They have all agreed that every student in our district, all 18,000, have a right to be, like I said before, seen, heard, supported, and safe.
Louis Freedberg: 13:26
Wes, it's not like uh Newport Mesa has been some, you know, paradise . You've had some issues there. There was a big controversy about a graphic novel that dealt with some transgender issues and so on, and um a number of other issues heavily centered in the culture wars. But you're still there. What is the key point that you would put on the table in terms of how you have been able to traverse this?
Wesley Smith: 13:55
Avoid the partisan, focus on the unifying message.
Louis Freedberg: 13:58
But that's tough, isn't it?
Wesley Smith: 14:00
No, but the work is tough. It's not an easy job. I question people's sanity all the time that want to be a superintendent. Because regardless of the pay that folks may criticize you of getting, it's not worth the headache that you have. I also think, again, we have to be focused on the results. And I would say with regard to the book situation, the book that we had in our library was put there inappropriately. It wasn't approved by the district, was pulled from our library because it wasn't age appropriate and is no longer in any of our schools. Because our district looked at the appropriateness of this and it wasn't at all. And so that's how we try to navigate that. We haven't had one challenge since then in four years, because the process is tight, right? Let's make sure that what's in there is appropriate.
Louis Freedberg: 14:50
Well, let me ask Carl, this collaborative that you put together, you've come out with a whole blueprint or paradigm for how school superintendents can make it through this difficult period, not only make it through, but actually flourish. What are some of the things that you think are key? And just thinking about this year that's coming up, which, as you said, the political battles are going to be coming to a head at various levels.
Carl Cohn: 15:19
I think it's really important to pay attention to parents. We actually encountered school districts, one in Orange County, that offered parents to come to school, they get a briefing, and then they walk with administrators and teachers to visit classrooms, so that if anybody's talking about secret grooming that is going on, you have an army of parents who are able to say, you know what? I've been in those classrooms, and none of the stuff that you're talking about is actually taking place. And here's the big difference from my point of view. When I was a superintendent, all politics was local. I knew that if I could navigate Long Beach politics, I could be successful. Today, all politics at the local level can be national. And so these issues around girls' sports talk about an issue where the numbers are so small. But if you can weaponize this issue and get people believing that these threats to girls are active, I actually went to a forum in August of 24 at a church called Calvary Chapel, South Orange County.
Carl Cohn: 17:07
And I was there for two and a half hours at this forum for school board candidates. If you had just walked in off the street and listened to the commentary, you would believe that the biggest challenge facing that district on a daily basis is biological males demanding access to the girls' bathroom. What was interesting about that forum, about two weeks later, I'm speaking to all of the Orange County superintendents. And I said to them, "Raise your hand if any of the schools in your district are dealing with biological males demanding access to the girls' bathroom." Not a single hand went off. But the atmosphere in that church forum was the belief that this has consumed the public schools, and if we don't stand up and do something about it, and if we don't replace the incumbent school board members, girls are threatened on a daily basis. That's what we're up against.
Louis Freedberg: 18:30
And by the way, for those of you who just tuned in, we're talking with Carl Cohn, former superintendent at Long Beach and San Diego Unified, and wears many other hats, and Wesley Smith, who is currently the superintendent of the Newport Mesa School District. Often there's a conflict between state laws or even the local school district policies that have been adopted. And now, not necessarily federal law, but interpretations of federal law, which do fluctuate depending on the administration, because the Biden administration more or less requires school districts to accommodate students' choices based on their gender identity, whereas the Trump administration is saying that's actually a violation of civil rights laws. How do school districts, how does somebody who's in West's position traverse these conflicts?
Carl Cohn: 19:25
You stick with your state law as long as you can and try and explain the wisdom behind that. And at the end of the day, again, you want public schools to be welcoming places where all youngsters feel safe. And I'll never forget about being at an Orange Unified School Board meet where all of this back and forth was taking place in a young trans girl after a meeting. That had gone on for close to three hours got up enough courage to go up to the podium to testify, and she said, I just want to feel safe at school. Please make that happen. I believe in America, in California, that we all have to stand up for youngsters who are saying, I just want to feel safe at school.
Louis Freedberg: 20:35
I just wanted to ask you in terms of some of these issues around the curriculum, to what extent do you feel the school districts or school leaders could be telling teachers what they should be teaching in the classroom and how they can be taught in the classroom? Because sometimes, well, teachers feel passionately about the issues that they're teaching about. And some may go a little too far on either side. How do you respect teachers at the same time trying to, as Wes was saying, kind of somehow traverse these very polarizing issues or getting caught in the polarizing issues? Wes, do you have any just a quick thoughts on that?
Wesley Smith: 21:14
Yeah, well, I would say especially right now in light of Mahmoud v. Taylor.
Louis Freedberg: 21:18
Mahmoud v. Taylor is what is that?
Wesley Smith: 21:21
That that parents have a right now to opt out of any content that's religiously objectionable to them. Um typically it was related to LGBTQ content, but lawyers are suggesting it could be used to demonstrate anything that is in conflict with their religious values. And so we have to be really, really clear with our teachers to your question about sticking to the core curriculum and making sure that they're aware of the right that now these folks have. Uh and so awareness, stick to the curriculum. The board adopted. We also invite parents in to see that. We have it electronically, we have it here in the district. We invite them in, come in and take a look. Tell us what it is that you object to, tell us why you object and how it conflicts. And then we we recognize that as a right. So it's awareness raising, stick to the core, know that this is a right they have. That's big for us, so they don't get caught off guard. I was a teacher, I still teach. I get it, right? We bring things in every day to um enrich the core. Uh, and we just have to be aware that that this is in play now.
Wesley Smith: 22:31
Carl, any thoughts on that?
Carl Cohn: 22:33
Yeah, I was fortunate to volunteer in the same first grade class for 20 plus years, and I am absolutely dismayed when I hear all this stuff about the grooming of young children. The only indoctrination in that first grade classroom on the North Long Beach Compton border at Colin Powell School was be kind from this first grade teacher. There was never any passing out of materials with regard to gender choices or any of these things that have animated national media. If be kind is controversial, we're in a boatload of trouble in America.
Louis Freedberg: 23:28
Well, we're not seeing much kindness coming from the federal government, and so hopefully that doesn't trickle down into the classroom.
Carl Cohn: 23:36
I famously read a banned book to my first graders. The title of the book was Roberto Clemente: Pride of the Pittsburgh Pirates. And some group had vetted this book, and because there's a single sentence in the book that says when Clemente first came up from the minor leagues, white sports writers called him lazy. And anybody who knows, you know, the history of Roberto Clemente, he appeared lazy because he could throw a strike from the right field corner to home plate. But calling out, you know, at the time, most sports writers were white. And so there was a single sentence in the book saying white sports writers called him lazy. That book is banned in several Florida school systems.
Louis Freedberg: 24:37
Well, let me ask you just last question. What is the one piece of advice, very briefly, that you would put forward for superintendents to have top of mind? Number one. And then what gives you hope at this moment as we enter this potentially pivotal year in American history? Let me start with you, Wes.
Wesley Smith: 24:58
Yeah, I think, like I said before, avoid partisan politics, use your political skills to achieve the outcomes your students need and deserve. And the thing that gives me hope, the governor had an idea for an equity modifier in the LCFF formula, and it got brutalized here in our community.
Louis Freedberg: 25:15
LCFF is the Local Control Funding Formula (that California created in 2013.) They wanted to put in a some weighted formula for students who have particular challenges.
Wesley Smith: 25:25
Well, that came from a specific demographic, right? Uh ethnic, socioeconomic, etc. So fine, it got it got hammered here. Our district, though, again, very purple, diverse board, both sides of the spectrum. They realized that some of our schools needed more, right? When you need more, you get more. So they came up with an idea to give additional funding for some of our schools, half of our elementary schools. And it was approved unanimously by the board in our community, right? Guess which schools they are? They are the schools that are predominantly Latinx, they are the schools that have more students experiencing homelessness, they are the schools that have lower socioeconomic status. So, in effect, we did what others were talking about, but we conceptualized it, we spoke about it differently, and now we have that to benefit our kids. So stay out of the partisan, focus on the outcomes, and all things are possible with a little bit of political savvy. Carl, one key piece of advice and what gives you hope?
Carl Cohn: 26:33
Key piece of advice to superintendents is be as open as possible to parents. They are your primary customers. And so anything that you need to do to further engage them, enlist them, that's the advice that I would offer. What gives me hope is I don't know if folks are following this, but John Rogers at UCLA has done an extraordinary study called The Cost of Conflict, and he shows how billions of dollars in America is being taken from school's instruction in order to fight these adult culture wars. So when you look at these districts, the cost of security and legal tends to skyrocket. I think putting that kind of concrete information in front of parents and taxpayers and voters as we go into this 2026 school board election cycle, I think this type of data gives me hope that when parents see this and when you go to these high conflict school districts, this is all about adults. The youngsters themselves are fine with this. I mean, when when you look at the celebrated trans athlete in a place like Harupa, the other girls aren't standing there being snarky or anything. The kids themselves have handled these issues, but it's adults saying, Oh, I'm upset about something in terms of my national politics.
Louis Freedberg: 28:36
I want to thank both of you for this really rich and important discussion. We've been talking with Carl Cohn, esteemed educator, former superintendent at Long Beach Unified, San Diego Unified, and currently co-chair with Jennifer Cheatham of the Collaborative on Political Leadership in the Superintendency. Bit of a mouthful, but you can find that online pretty easily. And also Wes Smith in the trenches every day. Thank y ou so much for your service. It hasn't reached armed combat. Hopefully, it won't come to that. But Wes Smith, superintendent of the Newport Mesa School District, thanks so much for joining us today.
Louis Freedberg: 29:41
I should mention we recorded this podcast episode before the killing of Alex Petti, and the resulting extraordinary turmoil in the Minneapolis area. School districts there report a heightened presence of ICE agents around schools and at bus stops and on sidewalks outside of schools. And ICE agents are apparently using school parking lots as staging areas. Zina Stepnick is the superintendent of the Columbia Heights Public School District. It's a small district of about 3,000 students in a Minneapolis suburb. She recently told the PBS News Hour, "T hey are driving around our schools, circling our schools. I've seen it with my own eyes. They're at our bus stops, following our buses, and they have been on my school property multiple times." Four students from her district have been detained by ICE agents, including one fourth grader on the way to school, and preschooler five-year-old Liam Ramos, whose story you are no doubt familiar with, and who is now in detention with his father in Texas. Many school districts throughout the Minneapolis region are offering students the opportunity to take classes remotely as a result of the chaos and threats in the area. Clearly, this is not the norm in schools across the country, but in the current climate, anything is possible. On that note, we have to bring this episode of Education on the Line to a close. I want to thank our guests, Carl Cohn, co-chair of the Collaborative on Political Leadership in the Superintendency, and Wesley Smith, Superintendent of the Newport Mesa Unified School District in Southern California. Thanks also to our producer, Kobe McDonald, who has played a particularly heroic role with this podcast as we work through various technical issues. Thanks also to our advisor, Pedro Neguerra, Dean of the USC Rossier School of Education, and many thanks to our sponsor, the Hewlett Foundation. Please write to us by going to our website at educationon.com. That's educationontheine.com. And you can listen to previous podcasts on that site as well. I'm Louis Friedberg. Thanks for joining us.

During the first year of President Trump's latest term in the White House, much of his administration's focus has been national in scope, especially on its push to dismantle or eliminate the U.S. Department of Education entirely. What, however, is happening at the local level? In this episode, we examine the extent to which political pressures on local school districts persist and, more importantly, how school leaders can navigate them. This will be especially important during this election year, when school board election battles will take center stage locally. Host Louis Freedberg interviews two prominent education leaders who offer their guidance based on years of experience in the education trenches. Carl Cohn is the esteemed former superintendent of the Long Beach and San Diego Unified School Districts and co-chair of the Collaborative for Political Leadership in the Superintendency. Wesley Smith is superintendent of the Newport-Mesa School District in California's Orange County, and former head of the Association of California School Administrators.

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Guest:

Carl Cohn, Superintendent of the Long Beach and San Diego Unified School Districts
Wesley Smith, Superintendent of the Newport-Mesa School District in Orange County, CA