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Louis Freedberg: 0:04
Welcome to Education on the Line, a podcast series focused on an array of new threats to public education, especially those emanating from Washington DC, and, more importantly, strategies that are emerging to deal with them. I'm Louis Friedberg, host of the podcast. My co-host Pedro Noguera, Dean of the USC Rossier School of Education, will continue to advise the podcast and will join us as his schedule permits. As some of you will notice, we have changed the name of the podcast to reflect the broader challenges facing education institutions around the nation at this perilous time in the country's history around the nation, at this perilous time in the country's history. Today, we'll be focusing on bathrooms, which, remarkably, have emerged as the major target of the Trump administration's attacks on a growing number of public schools around the country.
Louis Freedberg: 0:59
In this episode, we'll talk with Superintendent Alex Marrero of the 90,000 student Denver Public Schools. His district is facing a possible cutoff of as much as $100 million in federal funding because of its bathroom policies. At issue is whether students should be able to use a bathroom based on their gender identity, rather than what the Trump administration calls their biological sex. I should note that we recorded this interview the day before the killing of Charlie Kirk, who argued vociferously against gender-neutral bathrooms and transgender rights. At this point, it's impossible to know whether his death will have any impact on the Trump administration's actions on these issues. Most recently, five school districts in Virginia have come under fire from the Department of Education, also for allowing transgender students to use bathrooms previously reserved for girls.
Louis Freedberg: 1:58
As for Denver, way back in January -- it seems like a lifetime ago --it became the first school district in the nation to file suit against the Trump administration. The issue at the time was around the Trump administration's revocation of the Biden era policy, essentially barring immigration authorities from going onto school campuses. We talked with Superintendent Marrero on that issue earlier this year To tell us what's happening. I'm pleased to welcome back Superintendent Marrero, superintendent of the Denver Public Schools. Welcome, superintendent Marrero.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 2:30
Thank you for having me back. Excited to be back. A whole lot to share.
Louis Freedberg: 2:34
Well, a lot has happened since we last talked and I have to say the bathrooms were not on the table at all, and now you guys are really facing some major threats. Could you just fill us in where things stand?
Supt. Alex Marrero : 2:48
I think it's best if I can just explain how the controversy started, right, I would say close to two years ago. 18 months ago, a group of students and I want to highlight students, a group of students from one of our schools, east High School, approached the school's leadership team and asked if it would be possible to add an additional all-gender bathroom at the school. Now they already had several single-stall bathrooms, as we have across the district, and those single-stall bathrooms had been designated for all-gender usage Previously. In that school and other schools and across our facilities we have several single-store bathrooms that are gender-neutral. In this specific initiative, the students wanted to convert a gender bathroom, a larger one, a multi-use one, into gender-neutral or or all gender bathroom. So, again, this started from a group of students, and East High School has been known to start some grassroots groundswell support reason why we are a national leader when it comes to sustainability and climate action. That started at East. So this is not uncommon behavior from our scholars, our student leaders. The only option was to transform a multi-stall single-sex bathroom into all-gender Because, again, we already had some other options, but they wanted the multi-stall, and the students and the school started meeting with the district facilities team to see how they can move forward.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 4:21
The fastest way to provide such a bathroom was to add better privacy partitions in a girl's bathroom. Now that's due to fire code limitations. The partitions could not go all the way up to the ceiling, all the way down to the floor, unless we install fire sprinklers and smoke detectors in each one of those. Considering them an independent room, it wasn't feasible. It was cost prohibitive. Also, they chose the girls' bathroom because of the cost of removing urinals in the boys' bathroom.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 4:51
And in this school there's six multi-use bathrooms, and not counting the single ones. So that created three for the boys, two for the females and one that the students wanted to convert. That the students wanted to convert. So the school shared the information about this change over that winter break and then after the break, before the students returned to school. The work was completed during winter break so we didn't impede any of the instructional time and when the bathroom opened, school staff remained just outside the bathroom so that everybody was aware of the change before they went inside. So it was well celebrated. And then that summer I'm sorry, this past summer we transitioned the other boys' bathroom on the same floor into all-gender. In response to this claim and the initial claim, lewis, was that we didn't have parity.
Louis Freedberg: 5:43
But just to clarify the Trump administration then when was that? In January or February came in and said you can't have that integrated bathroom for girls. That's correct. That's correct.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 5:52
So someone must have brought this to DC's attention the Office of Civil Rights and they told us that we could not do that. And the reason this is important the reason was that it was inequitable and didn't have parity, because there were three for the boys and two now for the girls.
Louis Freedberg: 6:14
And also they were saying that this violated Title IX of the civil rights legislation that's supposed to give parity for girls in various facilities and in education institutions.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 6:27
Correct, but the imbalance was what they brought to our attention as being an issue. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist, lewis, to try to remedy this. The remedy was okay. So if we have three boys, two girls, one all gender, then we're going to convert one of the boys which happens to be on the same floor into all gender, that we're going to convert one of the boys which happens to be on the same floor into all-gender, and now we truly have parity two, two and two respectively, right? So that's how we responded. We in essence forgot about this, because it was not only a great solution, it was acknowledged as such and then we received this notice and it was very interesting. The update that I have to provide is that first, in February of this past year, we received notification from OCR that they were opening an investigation. We made many attempts to communicate with OCR to discuss their investigation.
Louis Freedberg: 7:22
That's the Office of Civil Rights in the Department of Education, right, correct?
Supt. Alex Marrero : 7:26
They refused OCR refused to have a meaningful conversation, communication with us throughout the process and later on in that summer we received the findings. So this past summer they acknowledged that our transition of the second bathroom on the same floor remedied their initial concerns. I want to underscore that. But then here comes the interesting part. I call it interesting not to sound defensive, but they announced new concerns, in particular creating a hostile environment. So we responded saying that we want to engage in a 90-day resolution and that's where we currently are.
Louis Freedberg: 8:05
They indicated that somehow, by setting up this gender-neutral bathroom, this was creating a hostile environment. Isn't that bizarre? And what was your response?
Supt. Alex Marrero : 8:18
to that Well, first, that this was not part of the initial claim or alleged violation. Now, so if we're responding to not having equal access and parity and they acknowledge that we remedied it it seems as if they went into their bag of tricks just to pick out something else. Now, those of us who have understood what's happened in terms of establishment of a hostile work environment, that bar is incredibly high. So two major issues is that this is a new thing that we've been presented with that was not part of the initial claim and that bar is ridiculously high. I would say that it seems to me that this is just targeted to our school district, perhaps because of how we've defended our community in recent history. So I am not concerned about this having any validity, but the threat is real, but it seems like a bag of old tricks.
Louis Freedberg: 9:24
Well, the threat is that they are threatening to cut off all federal funds.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 9:29
Yeah, yeah, and to your district. That, for us, is roughly 10% of our budget and, make no mistake, that would be impactful and that's like $100 million right?
Louis Freedberg: 9:40
Is that something plus?
Supt. Alex Marrero : 9:41
That would be impactful. Yes, we have a $1.5 billion operating budget and that's roughly $100 to $150 million. Will it make us go belly up overnight? No, it is going to be tremendously impactful, so I don't want to minimize that. But also, when you combine that with the financial future that we're facing because of declining enrollment, low birth rates, cost of living here in the city county of Denver, budget issues that the state of Colorado is battling, any additional loss would impact all levels of the district and I don't know how real it could be for us to lose the federal funding. That's still a debate. I know I was in the front lines along with some of my colleagues this past summer to ensure that was appropriated and then put on hold, was ultimately released. I believe that's the hard work of myself and some colleagues, but we'll see. I'm not taking the threat lightly, though.
Louis Freedberg: 10:37
Your lawyers recently sent a five-page letter to the Office of Civil Rights trying to get some response from them and what they said in the letter that during this entire controversy but they said in the letter that during this entire controversy this was, and I'm quoting from your letter there was no on-site review. Not a single witness interview was ever conducted. No substantive conversation with the Office of Civil Rights ever occurred.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 11:08
The district's requests for conversation, clarification, mediation, discussion of remedies all went unanswered. Correct, isn't that something? Nada, nada, nada, nada, not maybe an email? Most recently, we received an email acknowledging that we are not at impasse, that we have 90 days to engage, and that actually prompted a simple response saying, okay, we'll be reaching out, but nothing of substance. I don't think that there is any intent to engage in any mediation. You can't declare impasse if you haven't engaged in any meaningful conversation. There has been no on-site reviews, no visitors. It speaks to how this is either bogus I hate to say it so bluntly or it's just such a head-scratcher because this is an OCR that we can't even recognize anymore, and perhaps that's by design.
Louis Freedberg: 11:57
That's the Office of Civil Rights in the Department of Education. Right, and just to clarify, did you say they now have given you 90 days? You have 90 days to try to have they responded to that request.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 12:09
They've responded to our immediate response and where we called out that we have 90 days to try to have they responded to that request. They've responded to our immediate response and where we called out that we have 90 days per their own memo or legislation and that prompted them just to simply say okay, we acknowledge your email and we'll be in contact. So again, nothing.
Louis Freedberg: 12:25
It's better than what we usually get is nothing or crickets as uh as the saying goes but technically, right now you are in a situation where the deadline has passed, where they said, if you didn't do a number of things, remove the bathrooms. I mean restore the bathrooms, and there were a number removed. There was an lgbtq kit, um, that the district has giving advice and guidance to LGBTQ students and others on various matters right related to their participation in schools. They wanted you to withdraw that kit altogether.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 13:04
That is correct. They have a whole lot of requests and drawing some conclusions without conducting an investigation, and that is still the case. I'll give you another example. We sent an email in March directly at the acting regional director, repeating our prior request to explore resolution options and they chose not to respond no reply. And they chose not to respond no reply by refusing to communicate with us.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 13:38
It feels as if they're simply not open to exploring any resolution options. I believe and I could possibly I don't want to antagonize them that they're just seeking for us to be quote non-responsive and declaring impasse and then perhaps, as we've seen in the higher ed world, directly targeting us by withholding funds. But what I'm going to do, very, very clearly and perhaps with the use of platforms like yours, is to explain that there has been zero interaction. How can someone draw a conclusion, declare impasse, declare findings, when there has been simply no engagement, much less an investigation? I would be sure to highlight that because if it's happening to us, I'm sure it's happened already and this could be continued behavior that we have to stop.
Louis Freedberg: 14:23
I've seen some surveys that say that 1% of the adult population in the United States views themselves as transgender in some fashion or another Probably fewer than 1% of students. Wouldn't it be easier just to say okay, we're faced with this $100 million loss, we'll just change the bathrooms back, explain to the students this is not our preference and go?
Supt. Alex Marrero : 14:54
that route. You have decided to take a stand, Correct. So I want to answer that question directly. Would it be easier? Of course it would be. It would be incredibly inequitable, and it doesn't matter to me, Lewis, if it was just one scholar.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 15:06
How does that show that we value? We have six core values. The very first two are the three I would want to highlight. It's students first. So this is a student initiative.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 15:20
How are we not only embracing and supporting the students initiative? The second is integrity. If we say that this is a core value of ours, how can we shift just because of a threat? If we say that this is a core value of ours, how can we shift just because of a threat? And the third is equity, which is a cornerstone of how we function. Here Again, it doesn't matter if it was just simply one, Louis. How are we supporting our LGBTQ financial loss? Provide the students with dignity, health and the ability to to learn. We will protect all students and it doesn't matter if it's a small number of students while we continue to raise the bar for achievement and we've been successful here and it was not even one thought To reconsider Now the fact that we're extending a 90 day negotiation is just really to see how they engage with us and to see if there could be a remedy. Denver Public Schools we take pride in leading for equity at every level of the organization.
Louis Freedberg: 16:45
You said to our LGBTQ plus students, families and supporters we see you and we will not stand for these attempts at your erasure. That's a very powerful message.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 17:08
I think it was necessary to communicate immediately to our community Very powerful, very powerful message. By no means are we going to cower towards a bully but also not support our community. So that communication that you're referring to, louis, I felt it was necessary to communicate that very, very, very quickly but also emphatically to our community, because we were heading into a long weekend with all that's happening in society, with all the threats, all the violence. I didn't want any population and some would say historically marginalized, most vulnerable at the moment, targeted, I would say at the moment to feel as if they don't have any support mechanism, because folks may take matters into their own hands or feel that there is no recourse and we can't live with that right, so they can depend on us to make sure that we're going to defend them to the best extent of the law. And what makes that incredibly difficult is that we don't even know what the rules are anymore, because it seems to be shifting, when it's appropriate, from the federal government.
Louis Freedberg: 18:26
Before I let you go and I know you've got a board meeting coming right up after this meeting I presume this will be on the agenda.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 18:33
Surely, surely, I'm sure it's going to be part of the public comment and, by the way, I want to thank the Denver community in terms of their response via emails, a lot of communications, a tremendous amount of letters here, public comment and, of course, in the social medias, tremendous amount of support, not only here, locally, across the nation I would say. But of course, you know, we have what they call the trolls, the folks who are just perpetuating what is wrong with society. But we're not wavering in any which way.
Louis Freedberg: 19:04
A lot of school districts. Some are already in the crosshairs the Virginia school districts, which you're very familiar with. This is a weapon that could be used against many, many, many school districts, so they are looking at you and the other school districts that are under immediate threat. What advice would you have for superintendents who are in your position?
Supt. Alex Marrero : 19:30
We have students first. We're public servants, no matter what title, no matter how many suffixes you have before or after your name. Everything that you do as a leader whether you're leading in front of students in the classroom, leading a district should be because of the community that you are serving. They will tell you very clearly which way you need to go and it's abundantly clear here, so that's why I know that we're heading in the right direction. Of course, consult with your legal counsel to ensure that you're on solid footing. They now claim that Title IX prohibits the use of multi-stall all gender. The irony that was, if you didn't have that in the past, that's what you would be identified for, so it's truly like a 180. Again, it's an OCR that we don't recognize, because that has never been the case and it remains untrue to this day.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 20:19
Be prepared for a federal backlash. A lot of what I call the crazies and the trolls are out there, and if you're not prepared for that, just know that you have to have much more than just thick skin, because it will come. The backlash will come, and there are now case studies to know what to expect. Look at us Now, when defending our new arrivals was not easy to do, but we're in a good space because there has and I'm going to knock on wood here, hope you heard that that there hasn't been a raid in the school, and I think that's because we said very quickly no, not in our schools. And here we are right. So I definitely do not want to jinx that. Also, when it comes to this, this is not only how we were supposed to function most recently, and now they've shifted in terms of what they're investigating and, like you said, in California and here in Colorado, there are clear, explicit rules that we have to follow that are clearly at odds with what now the federal government is asking us to do.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 21:29
Lewis, here's the irony With the abolishment of the Department of Education and this two-year plan for Secretary McMahon and team to get rid of it, and when we try to understand because it's still incredibly unclear one of the reasons that's been shared is because we want the states to control education, have more autonomy. The irony in states like California and Colorado the LGBTQ plus and also when it comes to gender and identity. It's crystal clear what we believe in here as a state, but yet the federal government is imposing on us. So what is it, Lewis? Is it that the federal government doesn't need a Department of Education because the states can manage it, or it's only convenient when it doesn't align to what the federal government wants? So you see how this is all a ruse. We're all in defensive posture for several years, is what it appears like, but some of us are not going to take it lightly or succumb to the pressure. We have a duty to protect ours.
Louis Freedberg: 22:38
Is there anything that other school leaders around the country can do to support you at this time?
Supt. Alex Marrero : 22:44
Well, less about supporting me. I think it's supporting their own community, because I would bet that they are. It doesn't matter if it's in the reddest part of Texas. There are students who are looking for someone who's going to support them because they may be a little bit different, and this speaks to race, religion, identity, gender, you name it. You have a duty to respond to that one student, or that small group of students, that large group of students, or even if it's, the masses. Do not neglect the community that you're serving and speak out for them.
Louis Freedberg: 23:14
And I do have to note that other education institutions Columbia paid the federal government, the tech just going to the treasury $200 million. Harvard is talking about paying $500 million to get the federal government off their backs. Do you have an endowment of $100 million? You could pull out $100 million and I wish we did, absolutely not.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 23:39
So this threat is a real threat, but, just like we've seen folks tie things up in litigation, if we have to do that, we'll do so, but I don't think that there's a denomination that would make us cave to protecting a student and a community in a community.
Louis Freedberg: 23:56
Well, on that note, we've been talking with Superintendent Alex Marrero, who is really under the gun right now from the Trump administration, about to go to a school board meeting. Appreciate you spending time with us today and obviously we will stay in touch with you as this unfolds.
Supt. Alex Marrero : 24:12
Pleasure. Thank you, thank you very much.
Louis Freedberg: 24:15
Some of you may have read about a recent Supreme Court order that allows a student in South Carolina to continue to use a gender-neutral bathroom in his district, in apparent violation of state law. But the court, in its one-paragraph response to an emergency petition, made it clear that its order does not reflect in any way how it might eventually rule on the issue, so the controversy is still very much alive and in legal limbo.
Louis Freedberg: 24:51
On that note, we have to bring this episode of Education on the Line to a close. I want to thank our guest Superintendent Alex Marrero from the Denver Public Schools.
Louis Freedberg: 25:01
Our producer is Coby McDonald. O ur advisor is Pedro Nogueira Dean of the USC Rossier School of Education. Also, many thanks to our sponsors, the Hewlett Foundation and School Services of California.
Louis Freedberg: 25:16
Please let us know how your school district is navigating the conflicting demands of local school district policies, state laws and pressures from the Trump administration to close gender-neutral bathrooms, and please subscribe to Education on the Line wherever you get your podcasts.
Louis Freedberg: 25:34
I'm Louis Freedberg. See you next time.

Bathrooms have emerged as the principal battleground in efforts by the Trump administration to cut federal support of public schools based on its attacks on "gender ideology." The Denver Public Schools, for example, face a potential $100 million or more funding cut over its gender-neutral bathroom policies, and five Virginia school districts face similar threats.

In conversation with veteran education journalist Louis Freedberg, Superintendent Alex Marrero joins us to reveal how his district has become a center of a national controversy that began with the conversion of a girls’ bathroom to a gender-neutral one at a single high school.

After addressing initial complaints about facility parity, Denver now faces shifting federal allegations of creating a "hostile environment" – despite the U.S. Department of Education conducting no on-site reviews, witness interviews, or substantive conversations with district officials throughout their investigation.

What's particularly striking is Superintendent Marrero's unwavering commitment to his district's values despite these financial threats. "Would it be easier to cave? Of course," he acknowledges. "But it would be incredibly inequitable... It doesn't matter if it was just one scholar."

The Denver case highlights a jarring contradiction in federal education policy. While the Trump administration advocates abolishing the Department of Education to return control to states, it simultaneously threatens funding penalties against districts following state laws in places like Colorado and California, where protections for LGBTQ+ students are explicitly codified.

For school leaders watching this unfold, Marrero offers clear guidance: prioritize the communities you serve, consult legal counsel, and prepare for potential backlash. His message to fellow superintendents is powerful: "Do not neglect the community that you're serving and speak out for them," he told us. "We have a duty to protect ours."

How is your school district navigating the conflicting demands between local policies, state laws, and federal pressures? Share your experiences and subscribe to Education on the Line wherever you get your podcasts to stay informed on these critical issues facing public education.

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